"The Reporter", Chris Matthews, a flaming, Left Wing, Liberal Socialist, Catholic, and "The Catholic Cardinal" Bergolio of Argentina, a country mathematics teacher, priest who understands the logic, history and the Scriptural rightness of morality, freedom, and free enterprise. Catholicism leaves a lot to be desired but this is a reasonable, likable man. One of the most revealing things I have read recently. RB
CAMERA ON / BEGIN TRANSCRIPT
REPORTER: Welcome Cardinal.
BERGOGLIO: Thank you. Happy to speak with
you.
REPORTER: Well, let me get into it directly.
Last conclave, you were almost elected Pope. Can this happen again?
BERGOGLIO: What? That I will almost be the
Pope, again?
REPORTER: No. Will you be the next
Pope?
BERGOGLIO: Friend, I’m only jesting with you.
I understand the question. I will not be the next Pope
REPORTER: Why not?
BERGOGLIO: I chose not to. God has someone
else in mind I’m certain.
REPORTER: But you would take the job if it
were offered.
BERGOGLIO: I think not.
REPORTER: Why not.
BERGOGLIO: I believe I’m too embroiled in the
secular fiasco. It is a spiritual job, and I’m a soldier. Look at the nature of
power. In Europe first and now in America, elected men have taken it upon
themselves to indebt their people to create an atmosphere of dependency. And
why? For their own selfish need to increase their own personal power. I’ve been
a keen observer of the effect this has on the people, especially the poor. They
are very good at creating poverty where there is no reason to explain it. My job
is try to alleviate poverty and if that means to oppose the cause then I will
not be Pope.
REPORTER: But you are worried you would be a
spend thrift pope?
BERGOGLIO: Friend. Where did you go to
school?
REPORTER: La Salle College High School in
Pennsylvania and.
BERGOGLIO: And after that?
REPORTER: College of the Holy
Cross.
BERGOGLIO: They told me you were Catholic. Once elected, the Pope is by virtue of the promise of
Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error. God would
change any spend thrift politician into a responsible Pope. I’m just saying I’m
not that man.
REPORTER: So what is your job?
BERGOGLIO: My job is to ask you? Why are men
creating poverty?
REPORTER: What do you mean?
BERGOGLIO: I mean that poverty is part of the
natural condition and that is bad enough. But my task is to prevent the
aggravation of this condition. The ideology that adds to the poverty must be
denounced. I have and this is the reason I will not be Pope. I have a saying for
myself, no more poverty than God originally intended in the fall from
Grace?
REPORTER: Oh.
BERGOGLIO: It is a spiritual choice, and I’m a
political person. I’m sorry. I know you will make more money from this interview
if I’m Pope. Or want to be Pope. But I’m sorry. I can’t help you. God has
already chosen someone anyway. Right? You learned this in school?
REPORTER: Yes. Well? Where are you on the
issues that matter most, issues about contraception, women priests?
BERGOGLIO: This might be a surprise to you,
but I am Catholic. We are
Catholic. It isn't an issue and
for you to pretend that it is being debated goes against God.
REPORTER: If you were Pope, then you would not
change anything.
BERGOGLIO: Certainly God would direct the new
Pope to have more compassion for these newly created poor. And if there is any
social justice in the Church, the new Pope would have a stern word for the
creators of the new situation.
REPORTER: But you are staunchly orthodox on
the issues of abortion, contraception, and same-sex marriage.
BERGOGLIO: I am Catholic.
REPORTER: You were punished for opposed
same-sex marriage in Argentina. You opposed free contraception and the
government exiled you. What do you have to say about that?
BERGOGLIO: I am Catholic.
REPORTER: In the secular world, as you say,
you follow the conservative line. You oppose, uh, same-sex marriages, very
popular with young people. You are conservative on birth control. Won’t that be
the doom of the Church, alienating young people who support reality based
faith?
BERGOGLIO: Since God created the world, he
also created reality. You seem to be arguing that a man can’t be Catholic in reality. Son, you are a
Catholic?
REPORTER: Yes, of course. I meant no
disrespect
BERGOGLIO: You don’t have to worry about
offending me.
REPORTER: Okay, good. Can a, uh, Pope even be
elected if he is pro-choice or pro-love? I mean isn’t the election sort of fixed
in favor of anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage?
BERGOGLIO: Yes, the election is fixed by
God.
REPORTER: Very witty.
BERGOGLIO: Well, you did ask.
REPORTER: It is being reported in America that
you are against marriage equality. Is that why you feel that you can’t be
Pope?
BERGOGLIO: God chooses the Pope, and God also
made men and women different.
REPORTER: But you are... a conservative and
oppose abortion!
BERGOGLIO: Friend the expression on your face
gives you away.
REPORTER: I’m sorry, I’m just trying to do my
job.
BERGOGLIO: And what job is that?
REPORTER: I’ve been sent to interview eight
men in line for the papacy.
BERGOGLIO: And I guarantee you that they all
oppose abortion. So?
REPORTER: But?
BERGOGLIO: So, you feel like you need to
alienate the eight from the flock?
REPORTER: That isn’t it. How can the church
attract young people when it is opposed to abortion and
contraception?
BERGOGLIO: Young people are just as attracted
to the truth as they are convenience and expediency. So we will call it a
draw.
REPORTER: Doesn't the church need to
modernize?
BERGOGLIO: Finally, I’ve met someone who will
advocate publicly painting over the Sistine Chapel with one of the contemporary
street artists. Are you sure you support this and in public?
REPORTER: What?
BERGOGLIO: Forgive me, I was rude.
REPORTER: Won’t the new pope, don't these
cardinals realize what they've gotta do if they want to attract young people to
the church?
BERGOGLIO: I am a cardinal.
REPORTER: Won’t the new pope, don't you and
the other cardinals realize what they must do if they want to attract young
people to the church?
BERGOGLIO: I’ve explained the mysteries of the
atom to rural young people and also I’ve explained the Grace of God. And you
know what? They can understand both perfectly well. Frankly, I have more trouble
with adults understanding both.
REPORTER: But they have done focus groups; if
you want to spread your message you can't have this position that's anti-gay
marriage and anti-contraception.
BERGOGLIO: And you treat the church as a
political institution.
REPORTER: So we were not gonna see any kind of
change when it comes to things that matter like abortion or gay
marriage?
BERGOGLIO: All eight of the men you will be
talking to are Catholic.
REPORTER: Okay, I understand. Let’s talk about
your controversial stand on poverty.
BERGOGLIO: You want it to be
controversial?
REPORTER: But don’t you blame various
governments around the world for poverty?
BERGOGLIO: Some. Yes.
REPORTER: But you refuse to blame corporations
for their role.
BERGOGLIO: Okay, they also told me you have a
degree in economics. No buyer, or seller either, enters into any exchange
against his will. It is the nature of the economy. Man is frail, and he makes
mistakes and sometimes is greedy and they enter into exchanges that don’t help
them. Sometimes they become poor, but they made choices. There is nothing the
Church can do except try to educate people to become good consumers. Chiefly,
for me, it is an education solution on that side. And the Church has more
schools around the globe than any other faith. I say teach the people to save
their souls, and also teach them how not to become poor. And now not to allow
the government to trick them into poverty.
REPORTER: And you blame
government.
BERGOGLIO: No, I blame the self-serving
politicians.
REPORTER: So your solution to poverty is to
change the nature of politics?
BERGOGLIO: Please feel free to broadcast this;
I don’t want to be pope. Friend, you are a socialist and your friends are
socialists. And you are the reason for 70 years of misery in Russia and Europe
now is seizing in pain from your policies. You believe in the redistribution of
wealth and it makes entire populations poor. You want to nationalize everything
and bring every human endeavor under your control. You destroy a man's incentive
to take care of his very own family, a crime against nature and nature’s God.
You want social control over populations and incrementally you are making
everything against the law. Together this ideology creates more poverty today
than all the corporations you vilify have in the history of man.
REPORTER: I’ve never heard such from a
Cardinal. I’m not sure if you are here to help yourself or disqualify
yourself.
BERGOGLIO: Please air this interview. People
being dominated by socialists need to know we don’t all have to be poor. Some
poverty is part of our being cast out of the Garden of Eden. But look at the
empire of dependency created by Hugo Chavez. Promising them, tricking them into
worship of government and his very own person. Giving them fish but not allowing
them to fish. If a fisherman does develop a talent today in Latin America; he is
castigated and his catch stolen by the socialists. He stops?
REPORTER: You would be the first pope from the
Americas.
BERGOGLIO: He stops fishing. I will not be
pope, but yes I am from Argentina.
REPORTER: And you didn't want to be
pope?
BERGOGLIO: God didn’t want me to be
pope.
REPORTER: Perhaps he changed his
mind.
BERGOGLIO: Ludicrous.
REPORTER: Okay, I’m sorry. I feel like we are
getting off on the wrong path. I’m sorry.
BERGOGLIO: Yes, let’s be
productive.
REPORTER: You are a classic conservative
Catholic
theologian?
BERGOGLIO: Of course there's politics clearly
in the Curia throughout the Vatican, but in terms of church teaching, it's not a
political institution. It's religious.
REPORTER: I heard people, in fact, media
people, "Is this cardinal, is he a liberal? Is he a conservative?"
BERGOGLIO: Tell them please, He's a
Catholic. It's no more
complicated than that. Catholicism is what it is. You don't have to
believe it; you may not. You don't have to follow it; you may not go to Mass.
But it's not up to you to modernize us.
REPORTER: You see no room for
reform?
BERGOGLIO: It's not up to any religion,
although some do this, 'cause they want the money. They want the membership. But
the Catholic Church doesn't do
it. It's not up to them to bend and shape and mold itself to accommodate the
shrinking depravity of a worldwide culture. It's to provide the exact opposite.
It's to provide a beacon out of depravity, socialism and sin, among other
things.
REPORTER: If pope you would be bad news for
the left.
BERGOGLIO: I won’t be pope. But I am opposed
to abortion. I’m opposed to euthanasia. The pro-choice movement is a culture of
death. I oppose the demonic same-sex marriage. I oppose gay adoption on the
grounds that it is discriminatory to the child. I was exiled by the Cristina
Kirchner government, but I hold no grudge. How is this bad news?
REPORTER: John Paul II rescued
you?
BERGOGLIO: He made me the archbishop of Buenos
Aires. Yes.
REPORTER: And so you feel like you owe the
Right some sort of repayment?
BERGOGLIO: There are many values and many
types of people. Perhaps it is my interest in mathematics, but I’m the type of
human who is interested most in the truth. God gave me a healthy love for the
truth. Loyalty is only a virtue if in support of the truth or another important
value.
REPORTER: Cristina Kirchner said you held a
grudge.
BERGOGLIO: Funny I’ve never spoken her name.
Not once. And it is a battle of ideas not a battle of two or more people. I’m
only concerned with ideas.
REPORTER: She said you refused to speak up for
civil rights violations.
BERGOGLIO: As a spiritual leader, I opposed
cultural modernization, and so I became a political enemy. I understand politics
as well as I do mathematics.
REPORTER: And the Jesuits, they were eager to
cast you out, which they did.
BERGOGLIO: So you are implying that I’m a
vengeful priest?
REPORTER: Do you feel that you need to erase
the progress recently made in Latin America?
BERGOGLIO: I say poverty. You say
progress.
REPORTER: Let’s talk about
poverty.
BERGOGLIO: Sure, there is voluntary poverty
that is virtuous. Many understood the nobility of making themselves independent
of the fleeting things of earth. They are distractions from our pursuit of the
truth. I have no problem with this. I only oppose involuntary
poverty.
REPORTER: That is what I thought you would
say.
BERGOGLIO: Why?
REPORTER: Because you are a capitalist
right?
BERGOGLIO: Yes, I think capital is needed to
build a factory, a parochial school, or a church or hospital, all. Do you oppose
factories or churches or hospitals?
REPORTER: Of course not, but don’t you think
the capital is sucked out of peoples hands by greedy business types to pay for
these factories?
BERGOGLIO: No, I think people agree, through
their economic choices, that some of their money goes to build these. Capital
building should be voluntary. Only when the politician confiscates their wealth
to build government factories, government schools, government hospitals; only
then do the people not agree. Money given voluntarily is legitimate to build
with. Money coerced from the people is not legitimate to build with, because it
isn’t given voluntarily.
REPORTER: You are opposed to all
government?
BERGOGLIO: No of course not. But it isn’t the
seat of wisdom in any society I’ve seen in my life. The best government was
created by the Americans, in which they admitted that people are endowed by
their creator and most of the administration of society was left to the
relationship between God and man. However, slowly that has been eroded by the
atheists on the left who would replace man's relationship with God with a new
relationship with an opportunist like Hugo Chavez.
REPORTER: I just found it fascinating that you
were willing to stand up to an entire government in Argentina. You where cast
aside. Didn’t you care about your career?
BERGOGLIO: Yes, there are people who cave to
worldly authority. Even priests.
REPORTER: But you didn’t?
BERGOGLIO: No, I changed nothing. How did I
have the power to change anything in church teaching? My opinion? The democrats,
seeking votes, only wanted me to change my opinion and legitimize their
decadence. I did not, as evidenced by the fact that I was teaching high school
math in small isolated town.
REPORTER: I’m sorry that happened to
you.
BERGOGLIO: Why don’t you feel for others
oppressed for their interest in freedom.
REPORTER: Freedom isn’t punished anywhere, is
it?
BERGOGLIO: Certainly it is.
REPORTER: In Latin America?
BERGOGLIO: I’m afraid Latin America is lost.
The people of the entire area are controlled by a bloc of militant socialist
regimes in the region, most prominently Venezuela, Ecuador, Bolivia and
Nicaragua. They have a gun pointed at their head. So their heart is now
captured. Who will save them at this point?
REPORTER: So the game is over.
Checkmate?
BERGOGLIO: Friend, I’ve been studying America
this month before the Pope chose to resign. You must not have fear at speaking
the truth. It is for the salvation of souls and the recovery of Thomas
Jefferson’s people. America must not fall to the new painted communism. Even the
low information voters don’t want America to be sold into slavery. I pray they
cast out the money changers in their government! What manner of government is
there that condones sin? Abomination upon abomination--giving monies for the
murder of children, giving monies for the murder of the elderly! You are an
American. Your government, My child, has been infiltrated by men of
sin.
REPORTER: These are pretty radical
ideas.
BERGOGLIO: No. Perhaps reactionary. Radical
means something different. But a very long time ago, Khrushchev warned that we
cannot expect Americans to fly from capitalism to communism, but we can assist
their elected leaders in giving Americans small injections of socialism until
they suddenly awake to find out they have Communism. This is what is happening
now in an ancient bastion of freedom. How can America save Latin America when
they are slaves to the government themselves?
REPORTER: I’m having a hard time digesting
most of this.
BERGOGLIO: The truth can be painful. You look
angry; do you want to stop or ask a question? But you have created a new type of
state, the so-called welfare state. This has happened in order to respond to the
needs of the politically created poor. However, intervening directly is
depriving the original society of its responsibility. Families escape
responsibility in the welfare state. And churches even escape responsibility.
People stop giving to charity and see every poor person as the government’s
problem. I am a Catholic priest
and there are no poor for me to take care of, they are made permanently poor and
the property of the politicians.
REPORTER: I’m not sure this interview is going
to work.
BERGOGLIO: You asked and now you will listen,
my son. The social assistance state leads to a loss of human energies and an
inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic
thinking than by real concern for helping people. Needs are best understood and
satisfied by people who are closest to them who act as neighbors and parish
members to those in need. It should be added that certain kinds of demands often
call for a response which is not simply material but which is capable of
perceiving the deeper human need. This is not to mention the welfare states
excesses and abuses.
REPORTER: I think we are done.
BERGOGLIO: Wait. If I speak on the ordination
of women, on celibacy, on divorce, will you air this interview and my
message?
REPORTER: No, we are done.
BERGOGLIO:
Partially what irritates me to the core is the media’s inability to look at
anything without looking into the cause of the various problems. People are made
poor so they will vote for the very candidates that made them poor.
REPORTER: Have a nice day and thanks for your
time.
CAMERA OFF / END
TRANSCRIPT
